In this episode, GALE Chief Brand and Experience Officer Winston Binch and American Eagle Outfitters CMO Craig Brommers discuss how the retail juggernaut has embraced a fluid brand strategy to move at the speed of Gen Z, what it means to be a data-inspired company and driving record-breaking loyalty through its rewards program.

They discuss:

• (2:18) How the pandemic affected Gen Z’s shopping and spending habits
• (8:12) Connecting American Eagle’s brand to cultural moments
• (10:15) Hitting record-breaking loyalty through rewards programs
• (21:00) Why being a data inspired company works
• (25:00) How the key to successful marketing strategies is curiosity

We’ve included the full transcript of the conversation below for easy reading, plus have a listen on Amazon, Apple Podcasts, Audible, iHeart, Spotify, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever else you get your podcasts!

TRANSCRIPT

Winston (00:00):

I wonder how much of your time in the past versus now was focused on the foundational brand work? It feels like in the past a lot of time been said about setting the brand foundation, get your strategy, and then just kind of execute against that strategy. But is it more always on? Talk about brand today for you guys.

Craig (00:26):

Yeah, it's funny because while brand is one of the key moats that we can build, we spend some time on those core brand narrative, but we are constantly evolving because it's our point of view that Gen Z is actually in charge of the narrative today. And while there are guardrails that we want to operate in, you never know what's around the next corner. I can wake up in the morning and hear that a super influencer like Alixx Earl is in American Eagle jeans and our best laid plans against some other category or some other campaign are immediately blown up for all the right reasons because we're chasing that viral moment on TikTok.

(01:13)
It's funny, the weather outside says summer, the retail calendar says back to school, but right now Gen Z wants to talk about Halloween. So over the last couple of weeks, Halloween has been the number one search term on our website. Our Halloween tees are the number one selling tops, and fans of our brand have made over 10 million organic videos. And as we tape this today, Winston, as you know, it's Midgut. So basically since late July, Gen Z wants to talk about Halloween. So again, that's that pivot and flexibility that you must have when you're working in retail marketing today.

Winston (01:58):

So there's a level of improvisation that is needed, right? It's just a real time gig. You and I were talking about Halloween a little bit ways back, and my daughter actually told me verbatim, "Halloween is freaking awesome." So you're right, there's something in the water around Halloween.

Craig (02:18):

I was just going to say Winston, that I think that Gen Z had so much taken away from them in 2020, 2021 into 2022 that we like to use the phrase revenge living around American Eagle. These kids want to have their best time and holidays are something that is nostalgic for them and celebratory for them. And so what we found are these super fans want to celebrate even earlier than ever. And so we'll take those learnings from Halloween and certainly apply it to the all important holiday season. I can't believe I'm saying this out loud, but you will see holiday products, you will see holiday markings from our brand as early as right after Labor Day.

Winston (03:01):

Amazing. One thing, you and I were both at Cannes together and we were talking about this, but Cannes traditionally is celebrated at least from the award show perspective, brand storytelling, brand experience, but it seems like for you the media mix is drastically changing. You're moving away from that high craft and more into the raw and real.

Craig (03:24):

Yeah. I'm going to say something that'll be very controversial for our friends in the marketing community, but I don't really give a damn about awards. I know my Gen Z customer doesn't either. What they care about is the values of our brand. They care about the people, the brands, the products that we collaborate with, and they want to feel a sense of community when we work with them. It's nice to win awards. Our team has certainly done that and we're pleased about it, but we're not spending a lot of time thinking about it. What we're really thinking about is how do we stand out and how are we there for the customer at a time where people have more choices than ever before to make a purchase with.

Winston (04:15):

Yeah, relevance and cultural impact has never been, I think more difficult to truly impact culture or pop culture in a serious way. What tips do you have for marketers in terms of being relevant with Gen Z? You guys are the number one jean with Gen Z. Congrats. It's amazing. You've talked a little bit about this, but if you could kind of codify it in some way.

Craig (04:40):

Yeah, I think it's a blessing, I don't want to say a curse, but that we have a pretty core audience that does allow us to focus on their needs, their wants, their desires, and we listen to our customers a lot. I think this is the best research team that I've ever had in the retail space. For instance, Winston, we have a panel of 2,000 Gen Zers that we can ask any question on any subject at any time, and we do. Additionally, we have 35,000 store associates. That's a great population base to also test out ideas and theories with. And so I think that we go deeper and faster with our core audience than anyone does in retail. I think that's why we've been able to unlock opportunities that perhaps other competitors have not. So whether that's the right talent, whether that's the right causes, whether that's the right streaming shows, whether that's a breaking artist. We've had a really strong run of success in creating cultural relevancy over the last two to three years.

Winston (05:55):

Yeah, I love hearing that insights and customer research is such a big driver of your communications. One thing we hear a lot from brands, and it's a question we've talked about, but how does your customer view sustainability? Where does that register on the list of priorities?

Craig (06:16):

Yeah, Winston, again, I'm going to say something that might be a little bit controversial, but I'll go there because I often think Gen Z is talking out of both sides of their mouths on this particular issue. I think on one hand we've certainly heard that they are using their credit cards with companies that reflect their values and sustainability has traditionally ranked relatively high on things that are important to Gen Z. And yet they are making perhaps some poor choices on behalf of the planet when they do purchase with companies like Shein.

(06:53)
And so I feel like again, they're a little bit conflicted. Now that doesn't stop us from always doing the right thing and more and more and more of our products are the most sustainably made they can be, especially our jeans assortment. But I think that education and communication on that continues to be important. And I've also found it's an and not an or for Gen Z because no matter what, they want to look hot. That's just a fact. They want to look hot. And if you can offer them something that is more sustainably made, they will be pleased and happy about it, but it cannot be an or, because they always want to look hot first.

Winston (07:41):

Yeah, it's an issue that matters to them, but it's not necessarily a purchase motivator, at least at the top of the pyramid there. Right?

Craig (07:50):

Yeah. Yeah. We know what our top purchase drivers are, and well, I won't go through all of them just for competitive reasons. But I will tell you number one, because I've said it before. So again, it's that cool factor. It's, I want to look my best. I want to feel confident when I'm out there out. That's definitely the number one driver for our audience.

Winston (08:12):

You talked about Halloween. Cultural moments are obviously big, right? Connecting your brand to them in the right way. How do you choose which cultural moment to kind of get behind? Halloween is one, but these spaces can get crowded.

Craig (08:30):

Yeah, I think less is more, and then if it's more ownable, the better. So we have some pillars that we try to stay focused on. Music, style, social, gaming, community impact. I would say streaming is probably one that's really worked for us well with our partnerships with shows like Outer Banks and The Summer I Turned Pretty, but we've pretty much stayed within that core, and if you're in those core pillars, if it's something we can own that's even better because it sets us apart. This summer, obviously Barbie was a massive success, but we didn't participate in it. We decided to be more focused on our collab.

(09:19)
With The Summer I Turned Pretty, and honestly it worked out pretty well for us because The Summer I Turned Pretty turned into the best collab to date from both a brand and commercial perspective. We had a nice added bonus that Taylor Swift got really behind the show and was posting about it and her music is integrated in it. And when we launched that collab, one of the hoodies sold out in 40 minutes and we had to get back in stock relatively quickly. But staying with that title allowed us to have some exclusive unique products and marketing, which I think helped us stand out again in this crowded retail field.

Winston (10:01):

Mm-hmm. We at Gale do a lot of work in loyalty, as you know, and loyalty and retail is a big deal. Talk a little bit about your thoughts on loyalty.

Craig (10:15):

Yeah, it's so important, Winston. We are hitting record breaking loyalty, sales penetration in the heart of the back to school season. We're in many days approaching that 80% range, and I think it shows you a couple of things. One, we have brands that excite people and people are loyal to. Two, two, our loyalty program is very rewarding. Three, it's easily understandable. People understand what they get for their loyalty with either American Eagle or our Aerie brand. But it is absolutely the program that we focus the most time and attention to inside of American Eagle and will continue to build out and evolve that program. Because in a world where especially Gen Z is so fickle, I often say they have the attention span of a gnat. Developing that loyalty and keeping that loyalty is super important. And of course it goes beyond just the transactional nature of the program. I think it's a testament to our products. It's a testament to our amazing store associates, and it's a testament to the value that we offer our mostly middle class customer base.

Winston (11:30):

As you think about where you go, one thing I've really admired about American Eagle for a long time, similar to Chipotle, you're very innovation focused, you experiment with new technologies, new social platforms. What's your strategy around that?

Craig (11:48):

Well, I think first of all, again, if you're engaging with a young audience like Gen Z, you have to always be in search of what's now, what's new, what's next? And I think that we've given our team permission to get out there to places that are going to feel a little bit uncomfortable and we're going to take the appropriate risk. And it is okay if you fail. In fact, we celebrate some of those failures because we're learning. And I think that we've developed that reputation with media partners, with advertising partners, with technology partners. And even though we are a larger company in retail, we're certainly not the largest, but I do think we're getting those first calls because they know that this team is up for a challenge, has a heart of innovation, and it's okay to move and grow quite quickly. And I think again, that's again, a reflection of knowing your customer base and knowing how important the future state of something is to Gen Z.

Winston (12:56):

With things moving so quickly Craig, how do you personally stay up to date?

Craig (13:03):

I think in any modern CMR role, you have to at heart be curious, and I think that's probably the word I would use to best describe myself. I hope I've created a culture where my gig is not some ivory tower and I'm sitting high and saying yes or no to things I want and need our younger, mostly Gen Z corporate associates to challenge, to push to offer new ideas. And so I'm often not seeking just the input of my direct report, I'm seeking the input of someone that might just be starting his or her career at our company. I think the second thing in retail, you got to get out into the mall. You’ve got to get out onto the high streets and you got to get out and see what's really happening.

(13:57)
And we do, we try our best to take at least once a month what we call a jet trip, where we're visiting two or three cities over the course of a day or two. We're getting real feedback and hopefully reacting to that in real time. And then Winston, as you know, I have two focus group daughters here at home, two Gen Z daughters at home. And so it's kind of fun just to see my daughters and their friends and hear them and see what they're doing. And obviously one household is not representative, but it is another proof point and makes it somehow feel more tangible and real to me.

Winston (14:39):

Yeah, you and I both, I've got five between my wife and I. But one thing I love that you said is, I value this so much, is field trips, I call them, I go back to our school days. But insights are out there and as much data as you and I are surrounded by, I find when I just get out and I'm around customers in that environment, the ideas just come. And then it's like when you see the data point, you can almost validate it. But I think in this world of performance marketing, I think sometimes we just over rely on just numbers when still there's that tangibility of just being able to touch and feel and talk to people, right?

Craig (15:23):

Yeah. I think it's an overused term, but I do think we have to practice the art and science of modern marketing. And certainly we are, I don't like to say data led, I like to say data inspired. We are data inspired. There's more interesting insights that you get from data than ever before, but the art is still important in doing things from the gut to inspire your customer base or inspire your associates is super important. And I think that we've done a pretty good job of that.

Winston (15:57):

Yeah, I agree. I still think that you need to be vision led and data just helps you make that vision smarter and then you can evolve from there. You and I talked a little bit about this before, but what other, we talked about Barbie there. Everyone's talking about Barbie, but are there any brands or creators or anyone out there now that you're inspired by that's doing cool stuff?

Craig (16:25):

Yeah, I think these creators are so interesting because as you know, Winston, most of these and let's call it what they are, kids are from very normal American backgrounds. We're working with one of them right now. Her name is Livvy Dunne. She is a LSU gymnast. We were one of the first brands to work with her through the new name identity likeness, the NCAA ruling that you can work with college athletes now. And she has just blown up. At any time that she's wearing American Eagle jeans, I know for certain that she is going to not just drive engagement, she's really and truly going to ring the register. We are working with her during this all important back to school season in August, in September, and she's almost like the lever we pull when we know we need to juice the business somehow.

(17:23)
And we'll wait for that moment to bring her out. And listen, we've had that phenomenon, Alex Earl that I just mentioned, and we’ve worked with people like Addison Rae before. And why I find it so interesting and fun is to talk about authenticity. All of us marketers sit around and pontificate about authenticity. There's nothing more authentic than a kid kind of being plucked from obscurity, being creative, and then generating interest for themselves and their creative. So that's where we spend a lot of time on who are these creators? Who are these influencers and how are they connecting with Gen Z? And right now, Winston, we work with more than 600 creators during one season. It's a big number.

Winston (18:10):

Wow, that's amazing. One of the things we were talking about here during a brainstorm is this idea of unconstrained creativity. And to your point, when you think about the public, and I always like this idea that the public's actually more creative than the creative department. When you have a 600 person creative department, it's pretty big. And we're still good. There's still a role for us, but for me, I still find that too many brands and too many marketers constrain the creativity too much, and that's the problem. But when I look at brands like Liquid Death, who we love, they're recognizing that the marketing that they create is in competition with the creators out there. And that whatever your brand creates, you have to realize that it's the most creative stuff that's being made by the public that's really grabbing attention.

Craig (19:07):

I love that.

Winston (19:07):

In many ways, you're not competing with other brands. You're competing with the best creative out there no matter where it comes from.

Craig (19:12):

No, it's so true, Winston. And I think that for brand marketers or brand CMOs, I also think right content for the right channel. And I think that we're learning that what I call lo-fi content, which is obviously much of the time create or develop, is actually performing better than highly produced content that I certainly grew up on in my marketing career and certainly feel confident that we're developing beautiful photography or beautiful video assets. But so many times an AE store associate wearing the exact same outfit in a fitting room in the Dallas Texas store is actually driving more interest, more engagement, ultimately more sales. So it just again, shows you this kind of lo-fi, medium fi and hi-fi content, the mix of it, and then again, where to fit it in at the right time is an opportunity for all of us.

Winston (20:13):

I want to pause in this for a little bit because I think it's really important, this idea of raw and real. And you also said filling the feed, that's the focus. And when you talk to a lot of marketers, they get it, everyone gets it into, "Yes, I do." But then there's always this nervousness and apprehension maybe because the organization again wants the product to look perfect, to look right. People spent a lot of time making the product look a certain way. Was there an evolution of transition process with your organization to get to that, getting everyone on board with that kind of approach? Or is it something that everyone embraced from the beginning?

Craig (20:55):

It was an evolution, and honestly, Winston is still an evolution. And it's an evolution in my own brain as well, because again, how I was hardwired growing up. But back to our conversation about data and being data inspired, not data led, but data inspired is when you look at the numbers, you can see it with your own two eyes that some of this more lower-fi content in certain channels that's working. And at the end of the day, we're a public company. At the end of the day, we're serving our customer. At the end of the day. We want to drive for the best results.

(21:27)
And if the best results happen to be that content, great, let's go for it. I think this mix is important. So I don't think we're done with so-called hi-fi content, but what's the right mix and what's the right time to use that I think is important. But listen, I think we are a very innovative organization. I still get phone calls from colleagues of mine saying what about this? Or shouldn't we do it this way? And again, even when my own team is sharing it, sometimes I'm struggling with it. But in this case, especially with Gen Z, they want to see themselves in the content and they're seeing themselves with normal kids doing fun and interesting and unique things, not necessarily this highly produced content that feels surreal, not real.

Winston (22:27):

Yeah. Here's a provocative question. Do taglines still matter?

Craig (22:33):

Oh, dude, this is such a hot topic because-

Winston (22:38):

Of course.

Craig (22:40):

... my gut wants to say that it doesn't matter as much as it did ten-ish years ago because visual is so important, and again, creators are so important. But I have to say that our sister brand here within American Eagle Outfitters is the brand Aerie, and they developed a tagline, a hashtag, aeriereal that is celebrating its 10th anniversary next year and literally changed the trajectory of that brand and that business. And so I do think lightning can strike, and when it does, it's a beautiful thing, but I don't think lightning always has to strike. And so I think that there's a balance out there to what works for some brands and what might not for others.

Winston (23:35):

Yeah, I've told you I recommend Rick Rubin's last book, The Creative Act, and he talks about breaking your process all the time. And I think for what we do, it's so important that there isn't just one rule one way. It is speed, adaptability, curiosity, getting out. We've been doing ethnographic research for ages, but that still works. So there's some things that still work. I agree. Taglines are not right all the time. I'm more always focused on what's an idea you want to attach to a brand? And sometimes you need to say it, sometimes you don't. You can visualize it or do it through experience or content. But yeah, that's a great answer.

Craig (24:21):

And it's interesting, Winston, when you do find the tagline, I feel like it sticks for a while just referencing my time at Calvin Klein. #mycalvins is the tagline that still 12 ish, 13 years later is performing extremely well for them. I mentioned aeriereal just a second ago. So I also think that almost ironically, in a world where all of us have such low attention spans, really strong ideas, to use your word, I totally agree, it can stick for a very long time, even in this fast-paced world of retail.

Winston (24:57):

And I think in all, no matter what the category, simplicity is key. So just keeping an idea very simple, no matter what it is, it's like an imperative. There's just too much out there. What would the wise Craig say to the younger Craig that's just getting into this business? What advice would you have for yourself?

Craig (25:20):

I think it probably goes back to that idea of curiosity and always being curious about how you're contributing to the organization. Always be curious about the customer and what they're experiencing. Be curious about competitors and brands. Be curious about the world. I mean, I think one thing that really rejuvenates me is just getting out into the real world. And sometimes, as you know, I work in New York City, I might take an hour or two and just walk the streets. And it won't necessarily be in retail. It could be people watching. It could be art, it could be food, it could be anything. And being out in the world I think is helpful for any marketing executive. So I know my theme of the day apparently is curiosity, but I think that's such an important element of a successful marketer these days.

Winston (26:16):

Yeah, I love that. That's a great answer. One of the things I've been thinking about, it's been just unprecedented. It gets overused, but it has been in terms of the time we've been through the last few years. And one thing I think is important is to really think about why you're here, in your role at this specific company and what you're doing and having a mission. Again, I think it's connected to curiosity, but what do you want to accomplish? What do you want to do? I still love the fact that we get to tell stories for a living. It's pretty amazing. We're still doing it and we're doing it with different partners, creators, all sorts of people. But it's just being curious, pushing yourself and being ambitious, trying to accomplish big and great things.

Craig (27:12):

I love that. Yeah, I think sometimes you feel like being a marketer at this day and age is overwhelming because the choices of how to express your brand and the channels and to do it in is overwhelming. And at the same time, it is probably the most innovative time to be a marketer. And if you're driven by innovation and trying new things and feeling the freedom of taking risks, it is a really exciting time to be a marketer.

Winston (27:41):

I get a lot of questions about how you get into this business. Do you have an interviewing approach when you're meeting new talent, and they're coming to marketing? You talk about curiosity. Maybe it's a theme you'll hit on again, but what else are you looking for in people that are going to work at American Eagle?

Craig (27:59):

Yeah. In my interviewing process, I like to keep it what you just said before, Winston, that often the best marketers are the best storytellers. I'm curious to where that interviewee is taking me on their story and how their story is relevant to the opportunity that we have here at American Eagle. And I'm obviously asking questions and engaging, but I'm leaving it pretty open-ended. So my strong recommendation for anyone going through any interview process even on up to the C-suite, is what is the story you want to tell and what do you want that person to feel? Or what do you want that person to know about you when you leave that room after the one-hour interview or whatever it might be? And in any interview process, you're likely talking to multiple people. And I love it when each of the other interviewers takes away the same thing from that interviewee.

(29:03)
And so consistency on themes and consistency in storytelling I think is important as well. And I know in my career at important moments where I've been gunning for a job like this job here at American Eagle, I actually take the time to sit down and write that story. It's not a long story and it has to be digestible, but what is the story arc that I'm trying to tell and how might it fit the needs of the organization? And it's worked well for me and I think it's worked well for others that are trying to get into our organization.

Winston (29:40):

Yeah, that's that idea of why are you here and what are you looking for and what are you about? What's the mission?

Craig (29:48):

Yeah.

Winston (29:49):

Cool.

Craig (29:49):

And I also love when people want to know what success looks like in that role. "What do you need me to do?" I think it's very well documented that a CMOs lifespan in corporate America is the shortest of any other C-Suite executive. I think sometimes that's because the company doesn't actually know what it wants out of its CMO. And each of us brings a unique skillset to the table. And so I think it is important also for that interviewee to probe a little bit, to question a little bit, what do you need done? What does success look like for you? And that's when you'll determine if it's a match or not. And I think that is also important.

Winston (30:37):

Yeah, I also think passions, having passions and interests even beyond what we do is really important because a lot of times getting a marketing campaign out there, it's pretty hard. I always say the great work doesn't happen without a struggle no matter what it is. And you have to have an energy and a passion to make it happen.

Craig (31:02):

I think you're right, Winston and I do think that balance is more welcomed and more viewed in a positive way. Post pandemic. One of the good things that came out of this pandemic, so I have actually an all female direct report team. Many of them are working mothers. And I do my best, we do our best to very much shut it down 5:30, 6:00 every night. And the only reason I'm sending a text or making a call after that is in a true emergency, which doesn't happen a lot.

(31:38)
But I find that that balance that we're affording each other makes us more focused, more energized and more passionate in the time we are together. And I don't know about you, but I spend more time with the people I work with than I get to with my own family. So I certainly hope it's a fun environment. We're definitely competitive. We want to win, make no mistake, but it better be a fun environment. There better be a lot of laughs. There better be a lot of pushing ourselves. And I think that's probably also reflective of successful organizations. These are not painful places to clock in and clock out of. If you're at a place that fits you, you're excited to be there and you're energized, and I love the word that you just used. You're passionate to be there.

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